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Which chart do observers fire on? I’ve searched and searched the rules and can’t find it.
Note for Version 8: Add a flexible gun chart to the Range/Firepower Effectiveness Index
Observers fire on the single deck table, but down one table… so in essence, they fire on the old Version 7 charts single deck table. Side shots are then down a total of 2 tables
Is this right about observers going down 2 tables for a side shot? The reason observers go down a table is because they always have a deflection shot. The version 7 rules say nothing about a double deflection shot.
I agree with Andy. Don’t have rules handy, but I believe they say down one for observer and down one for side shots, and not say that only one of the penalties applies.
Here’s the text:
Deflection ShootingIn order to hit a moving plane from the side, top, or bottom, a pilot had to shoot ahead of the target. This type of shooting was called deflection shooting. Deflection shooting was more difficult than shooting at a target that was straight ahead, so adjustments should be made for the following types of shots:
Deflection shots – all side attacks and all shots by gunner observers of two seaters should be shifted left by one column on the Hit Table.
Non-deflection shots – all attacks on planes landing, taking off, taxiing, or gliding, all head-on attacks where the altitude difference between attacking planes is 100 feet or less and both planes are approaching, and all second turn tail attacks where the tailing plane has successfully tailed the target one or more consecutive turns are shifted right one column on the Hit Table.
Semi-deflection shots – all top and bottom , all first turn tail attacks, and all head-on attacks where the altitude difference between attacking planes is more than 100 feet are treated as normal.
No adjustments can shift fire higher than column M for twin guns, column I for single guns (presumably column J now, or lower than column A.
Thanks for posting that. The text certainly seems to support your reading of the rules, rather than a double shift for observers shooting side attacks. That said, this text was prior to the table being moved up for single deck guns. Maybe that matters somehow? Seems like we need some additional input on this one… Al? Mike C? Others?
Graham
The wording is ambiguous, however I lean towards applying the deflection penalty once. The reason I bumped this thread is that having played last night in a game with observers, I reread the rules and then looked in the forum here for anything that might have changed. I was surprised to see the two column down shift mentioned by Andy. I’d never heard of that before.
All I know is times I have played with Mike & Al, observers go down 2tables for side shots.
Observers are always single deck down a table because there is not a specific table setup in between for them (agreed should be addressed in v8!) then they get side shot deflection penalty as well, same as pilots.Observers are on the single (or twin as applicable) deck gun table. They are down one table for being an observer firing (unless they’re experienced) and down another table for a side attack.
What really frosts me is that the “not down a table” is the best it gets for observers. I’ve got a 38 mission observer and he still doesn’t go up any tables, just the same old not down one table.
One question. If a CLIIIa pilot takes a 150′ head-on on a plane 50′ higher, the observer can join in on the head-on, but does he go up a table? Clearly the intent of the rule is that he doesn’t, but the wording sounds like it might allow it. Opinions anyone?
Oh fiddlesticks. I talked to Mike on the phone yesterday and mentioned the underlined statement and he said of course the observer goes up a table.
You notice it says ‘all side attacks’ and ‘all (including side attacks ) attacks’ by the observer. There is nothing that says the observer goes bad 2 table on a side attack. If that is the intent ,then the rule needs to be rewritten.
D
I agree that it is ambiguous, at best. I think a plain English reading would lead you to one shift, not two, for an observer side attack. Given that the convention appears to be a double shift, the wording should change.
I think we’re going to gently remind people about the down 2 tables implications of the rule when we’re in 2 seater scenarios. I’m thinking most observer shots are side shots. I’ve been doing it wrong since my return.
An Alb C 7 and an RE 8 are at 500ft flying side by side at 100mph. The observers are manning their guns and blazing away at each other. As everything is relative, there is no physical reason those two gunners should go down an additional table.. A shot by an observer at the side of an a/c that passes by is no different than a shot at an a/c that passes overhead at 50ft in the opposite direction.
Dan
I approached MC with the same question a few years ago. He responded that the shift down for all observers was intended to reflect the constant movement of the airplane and the havoc that would cause a passenger in aiming a gun (even though, as quoted above, the 7th edition rules say otherwise). He also said that a pure deflection shot in the traditional sense would then cause another (2nd) shift down on the tables.
I make no attempt to account for the discrepancy between his explanation and the 7th ed. rules, but I spoke with him personally on the topic and that was his response.
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