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I have recently found evidence of a Lewis wing mounted gun being used defensively. In his book, Sagittarius Rising, Cecil Lewis describes an encounter between an SE 5 pilot names Bowman and an Alb. He shot the Alb down. It is on page 170-171. We may have to rethink the defensive fire rule as the Alb was attacking from above and behind.
Dan
Thanks Dan! I don’t have that book. Does it have any more info? I’m curious how the SE5 pilot did it. Did the Alb zoom past on a diving attack, and the SE5 pilot shot him as he climbed away? I’m struggling to think how else he might have done it.
I was reading Aces Falling (by Peter Hart) and he also made reference and he made a passing reference to British pilots using their Lewis to fire up at aircraft above them. Was very little detail, though, and I’m not sure it was based on any new/specific information. His books are usually filled with first hand accounts, however.
Great to see you back posting on the forum. Can we get you playing Dawn Patrol online as well?
Graham
Hey Graham !
You got it. The SE was stuck at 100 ft with jammed guns. The Alb would dive from behind, fire and then zoom climb back to altitude. Bowman pulled the Lewis down to clear the jam. After clearing it (still under attack )he waited and when the Alb got close the SE stalled and stitched him as he went by. Got him too !!
On page 163 Lewis talks about receiving his new SE 5 while 56 SQD was in England. He then talks about using the Lewis gun defensively.
I am hoping for more info as I read. If you want I can write the passages 2morrow. Just got home from work and an tired. It is only a couple small paragraphs.
So good to see you back in April !blue skies,
Dan
Doubtful I’ll be playing on line. I am lucky as I am playing twice a month in f-t-f games here with the Freikorps boys.
D
It’s great that you’re getting to play face to face. If you ever have a lull and want to try some online gaming, just let me know. It’s working great, with Skype allowing us to communicate very easily while we play. We even get to tease Barber!
No need to quote exact passages. Let me know what else you find!
Graham
The “Barber Effect”… Lol
Dan you gotta try the online! It gives me a chance to catch up with my
Michigan boys while I’m down here in Alabama!Take it easy!
TJI know both Ball and McCudden used the foster mount quite effectively to fly level under their target and rake them to pieces. The Lewis gun had a faster rate of fire as well, since it did not have to deal with the interrupter gear, so many pilots preferred it.
I think it would be interesting to see a wider range of defensive fire for the wing mounted Lewis! Adds to the challenge of gameplay. I still want to see my high compression SE5a engines in the mix too – one of the best fighters of the war deserves better than the groan it gets when it comes in FitS!I agree that it is unfortunate that the SE5a is greeted with groans, not cheers. That said, I’m not sure it is unfairly represented in the game. Compared to the primary alternative, the Camel, it was much more stable and much easier to fly. It killed far fewer pilots in accidents.
Most importantly, in my opinion, is that SE5a tactics don’t translate well to FITS. The approach of making one high speed pass on an unsuspecting target, the zooming away, doesn’t really work in Dawn patrol, which emphasizes dogfighting. It’s too hard to get a kill in a single shot (thankfully) in FITS, and who wants to play a one turn game where half the players die anyway? So SEs get stuck dogfighting, which they often wouldn’t have done in real life. I think virtually everyone acknowledges the Camel as the superior dogfighter, assuming you survived training first.
Maybe a simple change to something like the SE 5as turn speed would help without an overhaul, or a whole new set of stats? Is that what your rules do Andy? Post them here, please!
Graham
I don’t think it is an accident that the top 3 scoring British aces flew the SE 5a.
That said…I think a couple SQDs use the defensive shot if the attacker moves in from the front 3 squares only . And the attacker takes an HO attack. After reading Lewis’ account , I’d say if the attacker came in from the back 3 squares, the return fire would be a bottom attack rather than an HO.
In my long history of playing DP, I did have an SE 5a pilot reach 20 kills before his demise. And let’s not forget Aaron Gokey’s great SE 5a ace, Maj. Elmer Groover ,VC, with his 50 kills
Andrew…I’m with Graham.Let’s see your stats.blue skies,
Dan
Quote from Major Sholto Douglas, 84 Squadron, quoted in Aces Falling by Peter Hart:
“That will cause howls of anguish from the pilots who flew the Sopwith Camel; but it was a fact that the SE5 retained in a large measure its performance at high altitudes, which the Camel did not. And since the SE5 was very steady in a fast dive – which nine times out of ten was our way of making attacks – this was an additional advantage over the Camel. The faster we dived the SE5 the steadier the aircraft became as a gun platform. The Camel, on the other hand, being an unstable machine, would vary in its angle of dive at high speed in spite of all the pilot’s efforts to keep it steady; and because of its rotary engine there was also a good deal of vibration when diving fast, which made good shooting difficult.”
I’ll get my data & stats proposal all posted when I get back home & have access to my computer in a few weeks!
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