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Below are two different alternatives for possible two-seater firing rules. Please use this forum topic to express your opinion on these potential alternatives. You can say which one you like and why you like it, what you don’t like about an alternative, you can suggest clarifications/enhancements, or you can even suggest another alternative. We’ll entertain (friendly) discussion of the topic on this thread before we vote at a later date. Please restrict your comments on this thread to this rule — other rules up for debate will get their own threads.
Item A – Two-Seater Firing
A.1 The pilot and observer of a two-seater may not both target the same aircraft in the same turn, unless allowed by special features of that two-seater.
OR
A.2 The pilot and observer of a two-seater may both target the same aircraft in the same turn, provided the target is in the arc of fire, according to the rules in the Dawn Patrol 7th edition, for both crewmen.
The only way I can think of that both the pilot and observer can shoot at the same plane is if the 2 seater is level, not in the same square, and lower in altitude than the target aircraft. Is that right or is Is there some other way?
My vote is for option 2. During the maneuvering that represents a turn, it is entirely feasible that both pilot and observer would get shots off.
fambans wrote:The only way I can think of that both the pilot and observer can shoot at the same plane is if the 2 seater is level, not in the same square, and lower in altitude than the target aircraft. Is that right or is Is there some other way?The only other way is if the two-seater is one of the Germans with a raised gun platform that is specifically allowed (in the special characteristics section of the rule book) to fire into the pilot’s field of fire, at the risk of shooting off his own propeller.
Kevan wrote:My vote is for option 2. During the maneuvering that represents a turn, it is entirely feasible that both pilot and observer would get shots off.But in the game we don’t judge whether or not you have a shot by what might have happened during the turn, whether or not a pilot has a shot is based on if the target is in his field of fire at the end of the turn. When there’s a pilot and observer in the same plane the same criteria should apply to both, where are they and their fields of fire at the end of the turn in regard to the target.
To put it another way, I vote for option 1.
I’d forgotten about the raised seat models, It’s been a long time since I’ve been a game with those models.
I would say lets not create another house rule here and go with what is in the rulebook, and the way the MN crew has always played.
I vote for-
A.2 The pilot and observer of a two-seater may both target the same aircraft in the same turn, provided the target is in the arc of fire, according to the rules in the Dawn Patrol 7th edition, for both crewmen.I know there is an email flying around about this one. I am going to agree that 2 seaters were much more deadly in reality than they are setup to be in FitS. Let’s allow them to be a bit more of a challenge to deal with!!!
To clarify, END OF TURN judgement field of fire, based on aircraft type – so low wings have opportunity to fire at same alt, all others must be at least 50 ft lower for obs to fire.I totally disagree that the two seater should be able to fire both crew members at the same plane, it takes away the specialty of the raised gun platform German two-seaters and would make them terrors in a tailing situation, if the polit shook the plane then the observer could shoot
Actually they still cannot fire at the same target while at the same altitude – this remains a special feature of the raised gun platform German 2-seaters. There is also a separate rule that states the observer CANNOT fire on a target in a tailing situation where the tail has been broken, so both of these are covered.
Alien wrote:in the game we don’t judge whether or not you have a shot by what might have happened during the turn, whether or not a pilot has a shot is based on if the target is in his field of fire at the end of the turn. When there’s a pilot and observer in the same plane the same criteria should apply to both, where are they and their fields of fire at the end of the turn in regard to the target.The final square of each turn is merely a representation of the multiple things that occurred during the past 20 seconds of combat. That is vastly different than the “freeze frame gaming” mentality which concludes that the only things that can occur are those which occur in the last square.
There are scores of instances demonstrating that DP is not built upon the “freeze frame gaming” theory. Here are just a few:
[ul]
[li] Players must have a clear path for roll-out during landings… they cannot land on a lake and simply make their last square on dry land. The entire 20 seconds matter and are accounted for through each square.[/li]
[li] Players may choose the exact square where their bombs are dropped during their turn. It does not have to be dropped only in the last square[/li]
[li] The special crit checks required from ground fire before attacking balloons show that the entire 20-second turn is represented chronologically[/li]
[li] Simply arriving behind an opponent does not grant any tailing bonuses; you must actually maintain the position after a 20-second game turn to qualify[/li]
[li] Colliding with trees or buildings could never happen unless it occurred in your last square of movement – but the rules clearly state otherwise. If DP were built on freeze-frame gaming, you could simply fly through all the trees you wanted so long as you weren’t hitting one in your final square of movement.[/li]
[/ul]
The final square of a player’s turn is DP is not a deciding factor. Never has been. It is merely the best representation we can make of the totality of things that occurred in the last 20 seconds of the dogfight. And one of the things that could have happened is a shot by the observer.George, I’m sorry you disagree. Hopefully it won’t dissuade you from trying online Dawn Patrol. Is was a divisive issue, and I was going to aggravate lots of people no matter which I chose. Ultimately, the option we’ve selected is consistent with 7th edition rules. And, I will point out, a target in front of and above a two seater IS in the observer’s arc of fire according to the rules. Finally, as Andy pointed out, it doesn’t remove the advantage of machines with raised observer guns …. They can fire ahead at the same altitude.
Graham
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